Subscribe FREE where on earth you listen:
Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts | Spotify | Cloudy | RSS
Links and assets mentioned in this episode:
Transcript:
David Muhlbaum: The thought of an investment vehicle that you can place money into and then cash out for your retirement or to pay for your kid’s college has long been appealing. Target date funds, which aim to fit that niche, have been growing in popularity. But set and forget, well, it has its pitfalls. Certified fiscal planner Tony Drake has a few cautions about target date funds. Also, we’ll field some listener questions on Roth IRAs and annuities. All coming up on this episode of Your Money’s Worth. Stick around.
David Muhlbaum: Welcome to Your Money’s Worth. I’m Kiplinger.com senior online editor David Muhlbaum, joined by my co-host, senior editor Sandy Block. How are you doing, Sandy?
Sandy Block: Doing fantastic, David.
David Muhlbaum: Cool. So, we have gotten some emails, and we like listener mail – when it’s nice. Now for the first one, I’m not going to use her name. Not only because it wasn’t 100% clear from the email address, but also because the inquiry they posed had real dollar values emotionally caught up to it and maybe … well, I’ll call her Jane Doe. Maybe Jane wouldn’t want us hashing over how much she has in her urgent circumstances fund in Roth IRA or how ancient she is, but we’ll need those facts.
Sandy Block: I’m sure Jane will be thankful for your discretion, and I sure would. So what does she want to know? Was this related to our chat with Ed Slott about IRAs?
David Muhlbaum: Yeah, bingo. Well, Jane said she liked it, but she wanted to know in the end if she could use her Roth IRA as a savings account of sorts. A place to stash money she might need access to in the moderately near term.
Sandy Block: So we’re talking about an urgent circumstances fund here?
David Muhlbaum: Sort of. Now, she said she already has $10,000 in a credit union savings account as her urgent circumstances fund, and she said she directs no matter what thing above that to a mutual fund choice, which sounds fine and well. But she, and I’m quoting here, “Didn’t realize the refund of Roth fiscal proclamation until just, and I only have about $4,000 in it.”
Sandy Block: I don’t be with you how Ed Slott, who thinks all should have a Roth IRA, failed to reach her.
David Muhlbaum: Yeah, I know, right? Anyway, so I can only presume that the amount in her Roth IRA is moderately low relation to the other things. Not only because she only just exposed the miracle of the Roth IRA, but also, as we’ve discussed, money going into a Roth is after tax. So if you’re converting a square IRA into a Roth or even making donations, you’ve got taxes to cover, and it’s a excellent thought to do these conversions a bit at a time. Now we’re guessing at Jane’s approach, but also again, that also seems fine and well.
Sandy Block: Right, and she may just not have converted no matter what thing. She might just be contributing and there’s a limit on how much you can say every year. So what’s her inquiry?
David Muhlbaum: Right. Well, it seems rather point, but since it illustrates how a Roth works for all, here goes. In the end, she wants to know she can take donations and return from her Roth IRA out without any tax penalty. I thought this was noteworthy in part because when we talked with Ed Slott, we all went on about how the beauty of the Roth IRA is that money you earn in it won’t be taxed ever.
Sandy Block: Which is right, but there are some caveats. How ancient did she say she is?
David Muhlbaum: 61. She said she’s 61.
Sandy Block: She also said she’d only exposed the refund of a Roth just. How just? Was she point?
David Muhlbaum: Yeah. She said she’d had it more than five years.
Sandy Block: Okay, so it’s no manufacturing accident she said more than five. The reason I’m going all detective … I like detective novels, I’m reading them right now, on these numbers is because of the fine print. Most people know you have to be over 59 and a half to take return out of a Roth IRA without penalty with some exceptions, but she’s got that covered because she’s 61. The other point is more subtle and has to do with what’s called the five-year rule. In the end, you have to wait five years after, if you’ve opened a Roth, before you can take your return out tax-free, high and mighty you’re over 59 and a half, but she’s done that.
David Muhlbaum: So even if she puts in more money now, and that was part of her inquiry, it’s not like she has to wait five more years to expire on that, to take the return back out. She cleared five years. That’s it. Done. One single deadline, not a rolling one?
Sandy Block: Right, and that’s a touch that Ed Slott often points out, is that it is not … The five-year doesn’t start every time you say to a Roth. The five year starts when you open the Roth. So in Jane’s example, yes, she could. She’s cleared that barrier. She could place more money in and she could take it out tax-free, and we can talk about whether that’s a excellent thought, but she could do it.
David Muhlbaum: Okay, Jane, I reckon we have your answer. But by the way, Sandy, shouldn’t we be adding some kind of disclaimer here, I mean, that people should go and check with their fiscal planner or a touch? Because many of our guests get pretty wary about handing out advice, and maybe we shouldn’t be quite so bold. I mean, the only authoritative recollection I hold is wasteland first aid.
Sandy Block: Which is a excellent authoritative recollection to have if you’re in the woods and-
David Muhlbaum: If you’re spouting blood, but yeah.
Sandy Block: Oh yeah, if you get attacked by … If I get attacked by a bear, you’re the first person I’m going to call. But yeah, I reckon she should talk to a planner. I guess my … the other comment I would just make is we have not compulsory … One thing is she can always take out the amount that she puts in. You can always take out your donations tax-free, penalty free at any time. That’s is going to be the bulk of the money that you have in IRA. So we have not compulsory in a pinch, a Roth does make a excellent source of urgent circumstances funds, but we don’t urge it as in do because that’s not really what a Roth is held to do. It’s held to be for your retirement, and when you take money out, you’re taking away the largest benefit, which is you get years and years of tax-free growth. So I’ll stop there, but that’s just a touch a fiscal planner would doubtless tell her, too.
David Muhlbaum: Very well. Okay, so we had two more questions in, and these were about our very recent episode with Tim Steffen talking about the the makings harms of inheriting assets. One was very small. It just said, “What about annuities?”
Sandy Block: Oh no, what about them?
David Muhlbaum: Yeah, exactly. They’re complicated! Now with my super special internet skills, I could tell that this person was commenting from the transcript of our chat with Tim. I knew it was about that episode. So I feel safe extrapolating a bit and guessing that the full inquiry was, “Aren’t annuities taxable to the person inheriting them?” And I’m guessing again, that they’re doubtless talking about income tax.
Sandy Block: Right, and yes, it is doable to be on the hook for income taxes on an annuity you inherit as an heir. Now, like no matter what thing with annuities, it’s complicated. It depends on a whole bunch of things like, are you a spouse? Are you someone else? Was the annuity in a tax late account? All that stuff.
David Muhlbaum: All right. So what’s the worst-case scenario? How could you in the end be on, “what about annuities?” How could it be terrible?
Sandy Block: I reckon it would be … I reckon, high and mighty that the annuity is in a tax late account, and I reckon that’s the case with a lot of annuities, most annuities doubtless, and you inherited it and then you cashed it out, it would be the corresponding of inheriting an IRA and cashing that out. You would owe income tax on all of the return and potentially the principal, if that was also tax late. So the worst-case scenario is you inherit an annuity. You say, “Oh, boy.” You cash it out, and then you get a very huge tax bill.
David Muhlbaum: Okay. I see. Well, all right, dear writer. I hope you’re not in that circumstances. I’m going to pop a link into our show notes by one of our Construction Wealth contributors. His name is Ken Nuss, and he goes way deep into how heirs can lessen taxes on annuities. It’s called an annuity stretch and well, I’m not going into it. You can read it. The last note was from Stan Hardy. He signed his name, so I’ll use it. Thanks for listening, Stan, and we’re sorry if we alarmed you.
Sandy Block: How did we alarm Stan?
David Muhlbaum: Okay, well, you dredge up how we went on about how the Secure Act means that heirs who aren’t spouses now have to empty out an IRA in 10 years? They can’t stretch it out for decades anymore.
Sandy Block: Yeah, we discussed that at length.
David Muhlbaum: Yeah, with Tim, but what we doubtless didn’t make clear enough is that this only applies when it’s for someone who has died on January 1st of 2020, or from that point on. It is not retroactive.
Sandy Block: That is right. The Secure Act annoyed enough estate planners as it was; retroactive would have been really unfair. So if you inherited an IRA before January 1st, 2020, the ancient rules apply. You can still stretch it out, take distributions based on your duration, your life anticipation and not worry about a huge tax bill or worry about having to take it all out in 10 years.
David Muhlbaum: Got it. All right. Thanks for writing, Stan. We hope that clears things up. In our main segment, we’ll talk to a fiscal planner about target date funds, their strengths, their weaknesses, and whether they’re right for you.
The Pros and Cons of Target Date Funds with Tony Drake
David Muhlbaum: Welcome back to Your Money’s Worth. For our main segment today, we’re going to dig into a well loved investment option, target date funds. There’s a excellent chance you might have some money in one of these, perhaps through a 401(k) plot or in a college savings account. Their simplicity is very appealing and that’s a huge reason for their rapid growth, above all among younger investors. Joining us today to discuss them is Tony Drake, who is a certified fiscal planner from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. He has contributed articles to Kiplinger’s Construction Wealth channel, and frankly, that’s how we found him, even if you may have heard him on all sorts of other media, counting the live radio show about retirement he hosts on WTMJ AM 630. Of course, that’s void online these days as a podcast. We’ll place in a link. Thanks for joining us, Tony. You’re clearly no weirder to headset.
Tony Drake: Yeah. I feel like when I started in the diligence, all was face to face. Now it’s Zooms and headset and podcasts, and you have to be comfortable with it. That’s for sure.
David Muhlbaum: Yeah. It’s amusing that Zoom has in fact made a lot of people more comfortable with coming on and talking to us this way, as opposed to the ancient pick up the touchtone phone and patch them in scenario. But on the other hand, I still am disbelieving now and again that we have people who don’t seem to own a set of headset in the house. Anyway, Tony, before we get into exactly how target date funds work, I want to question a touch kind of blunt. You run a team of advisors and you have a lot of clients. Do you ever urge target date funds to them?
Tony Drake: Commonly, when we’re working with the client frankly. Most of our clients are in retirement or rapidly approaching retirement, and we don’t tend to use the funds in our portfolios frankly. Irregularly, we’re helping them maybe pick some funds in their own 401(k). Now and again those are the best options, but in our own portfolios, we don’t tend to use them. There can be some inefficiencies, but we oftentimes do in their 401(k)s.
David Muhlbaum: Got it. Okay. Yeah, I just wanted to touch on the thought. We’re going to do cons and pros today, as you did in your piece for Kiplinger. So back to definitions, what is a target date fund?
Tony Drake: It’s pretty simple. As you could imagine, we’re in 2021 here, and imagine you’re retiring in 30 years. You would pick a target date fund for 2050 or 2051, and that would get safer as you got closer to retirement. So it’s going to be a small bit more aggressive now that we have a long,
30-year runway ahead of us. As we get closer, that fund manager should rebalance that so it gets safer and safer as we get closer to that target retirement date.
Sandy Block: So Tony, we surely be thankful for the simplicity of that thought, but already there’s a huge choice that people have to make, which is picking the date they expect to retire. I’m not all that young myself, and I really have no thought when I’m going to retire. So what if someone signs up for a target date fund, like you said, with a 30-year runway, and then they change their mind. They choose to retire early at 62 instead of 65, or maybe they choose I’m never going to retire. Can you pick a new date?
Tony Drake: Yeah, you surely can rebalance your portfolios and pick a new date. I reckon that inquiry is simple though, Sandy. Let’s retire tomorrow, right and delight in ourselves, right? But no, to your point, you bring up a fantastic point that many of us, at least earlier in our working careers now and again have no thought when we’re going to retire. So as you get closer to that date, if you choose for some reason, you’re going to retire five years earlier, you’re going to extend it for 5 or 10 years, it’s pretty simple to rebalance your 401(k) and pick a new target date fund that’s closer to that retirement date that you’re dreaming about.
David Muhlbaum: Commonly, if that person were making those changes in a 401(k), for example, a habitual 401(k), they can go them around willy-nilly without tax penalty. They could-
Tony Drake: That’s one of the beauties, right, of those retirement fiscal proclamation. You can rebalance that, not incur any of the tax penalty until you start to take that money out in retirement. That’s when we get the tax penalty.
David Muhlbaum: Got it. So target date funds date back to the early 1990s. I reckon you had 1994 in your article. I’m wondering why did it take that long for the thought to come around? It wasn’t a change in law parameter. How did this even come up?
Tony Drake: Yeah, I reckon it’s a touch as patrons got more caught up, we had this really seismic shift, if you will, from pension plans to 401(k)s. That really changed the game for investors. Before, your employer was reliable to make those investment choices, and there’s lots of testing. If they didn’t invest right, they’d have to place more money in. Really that onus was on them to do it by the book. When this 401(k) revolution happened in the United States, that burden now falls on the investors. So I reckon investors were always hungry for more and more options. Commonly language, if we look at data, retail investors don’t do quite as well on their 401(k)s if they don’t have help. This was an thought that came along to just say, hey, here’s a simple way that you can just pick that target date. A money manager is going to rebalance that over time so you’re not stuck. Maybe one year from retirement, a huge market minor change happens and your choice drops more than you hoped.
David Muhlbaum: Yeah. The pension-
Sandy Block: Right-
David Muhlbaum: Sorry, Sandy. I was just going to say the pension plot analogy is very on point. The thought of in effect someone knows when you’re going to need the money, and they are going to manage it over that term with the thought that you’re going to need it then. As opposed to the more self-aimed at 401(k) shareholder, who’s into funds and picking and choosing. But Sandy, you had a inquiry.
Sandy Block: Well no, I was just going to comment that I dredge up early on in, when I first started investing in a 401(k), and you had a lot of choices, and it turned out that people didn’t really like that very much, or they managed it terribly. I can’t dredge up how many of my colleagues, if we had 10 funds in our 401(k), they would just place one-tenth of their savings in each of those funds. So I reckon that target date funds solved that problem for a lot of people, because they didn’t have to make a lot of choices. We dug into some numbers from the Investment Company Institute, which found that for 2018, which is the most recent year they studied, 27% of all assets were invested in target date funds, and more than half of 401(k) participants in the list held target date funds. That adds up to a lot of money, billions or trillions of dollars, right Tony?
Tony Drake: Huge amounts of money, right, and so many folks are utilizing these target date funds. I reckon they’re a fantastic option for someone that’s administration their own money and maybe doesn’t really know what to do. I reckon you brought up a fantastic point, Sandy. Just separating it by one-tenth in all 10 of the funds isn’t always the answer we want to do. Now and again we see investors that will look back and say, “Well, which one did well last year? I’ll place my money in that one.” Well, we know the future doesn’t always repeat the past, right? So these target date funds were really a fantastic way that folks could do that. When we reckon a small bit about the huge boost they got around 2006, dredge up the Pension Safeguard Act was passed. Then 401(k) administrators had to offer auto conscription and uncommon investment alternatives. There were some more liability and dependability that they were looking at the plot and making sure it was reliable. So you saw a huge boost there, and to your point, lots and lots of dollars in these funds today.
David Muhlbaum: So yeah, that change in the law, I mean, it helped … to some extent, it helped the plot providers because it gave them options and gave them some legal safeguard. I reckon it’s an open inquiry how much it helped the party shareholder. I mean, Sandy used the word, the thought that the target date fund solved things. But as we’re going to talk about, they made some harms of their own. We’ll get into that. But I guess the net result of that was that a lot of people who weren’t automatically contributing to their retirement, well, now they were. Now they’re doing a touch. They’re auto-enrolled and putting some money away. I guess that’s excellent from a macroeconomic perspective, but that doesn’t mean that target date funds are right for all. So yeah, maybe let’s get to those cons. What are the downsides of target date funds?
Tony Drake: Like any investment, we’re going to have some pros and cons, right? There’s things that work fantastic and there’s things we need to reckon about. The limitations on the target date funds is they’re just not individualized to your scenario. It’s that same investment pool, those same rebalances that happen at certain time periods till the end of the target date that happen for every person. They treat every person who retired at a certain time period the same, and we know we’re not all the same, right? We all have uncommon income needs, surely uncommon lifestyles, assets. Huge thing, we all have very uncommon risk tolerances, right?
Maybe one of us is really aggressive and we want to see massive gains in excellent years. Those years like 2008 where the market cuts in half, we’re not pleased, but we know it’s part of the huge picture, and we’ll ride it out. Where other people lose 20%, 25%, 30%, they panic. They sell it the worst point doable at the bottom. Then they’re sitting there with their hands in their pockets, wondering when do I get back in? So if you want a more individualized plot, you really run into some limitations, because the target date funds just don’t give you that option.
Sandy Block: But Tony, what about fees? Because these are a touch we’re obsessed with it at Kiplinger. Now there’s been an line of reasoning that fees for target date funds could maybe deserve to be to some extent higher because someone is trading the funds and stocks to change your allocations over time, or at least telling an algorithm to do so. But I guess we’ve seen that various fees vary between target date funds too, and I just wonder if this is a touch that investors should be worried about.
Tony Drake: 100%. I mean, we know fees, mainly over a 20, 30, 40 year working career can make a massive alteration in the outcome of your choice. A fantastic part, Sandy, there’s so many options out there currently. We know some of the fund families have much lower domestic costs than others. So making that part of your buying or your shopping process is really vital. The fantastic part, if we reckon back maybe 10 or 20 years ago, you had to sort through these prospectuses that were written by attorneys. They were trying to read, maybe on purpose, right, and really hard to find out what you were paying. Currently, there’s fantastic assets. There’s some tools at finra.org, Yahoo Finance, where you can type in the fund, really see exactly what the domestic cost is, compare that to other similar funds. So really, in this in rank age, all that data is right at our fingertips. So we can really make much more educated choices when it comes to fees.
David Muhlbaum: So Tony, you’ve been a contributor to our Construction Wealth channel. One piece that ran earlier this year was called The Nerve-racking Conflicts of Appeal in Target Date Funds. Now that’s a provocative title — it was in the end a small version of a study by three finance professors. And I’m going to link to that from the show notes because it’s appealing … and quite long … and hard to boil down here today. But we were wondering if you’d heard about this. Here’s what sounded like the bottom line to me, and I’m going to quote it: “Many investors in retirement fiscal proclamation end up holding these target date funds without paying concentration to the direct and indirect costs linked with them. This results in a cumulative return loss of 21% for an average shareholder holding the fund for 50 years.”
Twenty-one percent, wow, okay, that’s quite a haircut. So, why? And again, I’m trying to clarify a huge, footnoted study in a couple of lines, but the authors contend that the fund families who run the target date funds, well, they take benefit of all cash coming into the target date funds to balance explosive nature within their family of underlying funds, in the end juggling the money. Then there’s the fact that a target date fund, inherently, it charges fees on top of no matter what fees the underlying funds do. I get the feeling that these are known harms in the diligence, but the nature of the circumstances is that the people who often end up in target date funds are the ones who … they’re not paying concentration.
Tony Drake: Yeah. There’s some pretty incredible studies out there that your retail shareholder, your person investing in a 401(k) tends to have very small thought what they’re paying. That is one of our contentions with the target date funds. Their fees can be large when you start to stack those various domestic fees from the funds they’re using and the fund fees themselves. That takes a huge bite out of your retirement long-term. We also find that some of them can be a small bit inefficient. Oftentimes, portfolios that are more individualized to your needs are going to take benefit of uncommon sectors in the economy that might be doing better under uncommon recurring cycles or maybe uncommon biased regimes, if you will. These target date funds often don’t take benefit of that, so they tend to under perform.
David Muhlbaum: Yeah, they seem like in some ways they’re a blunt instrument. You used that metaphor going in about the runway of retirement, like success the runway. The metaphor I hear in target date funds too, is also the glide path, in effect again, using an airline thing or aircraft thing, flying into that … flying this hypothetical honest line into a smooth landing. But that’s all kind of idealized and yeah, as you suggest, may not be the key for all.
Sandy Block: Well, and the other thing Tony, I’d like to question you about, and I dredge up this being an issue after the market crash in 2008, 2009, is you mentioned risk tolerance. I don’t know if this has changed, but what we found then was that there were huge differences in the asset allocations of some of these uncommon target date funds. Some people were very close to retirement and found out that they had a much higher allocation in equities in their target date funds than they were comfortable with. Is that still a circumstances, and is it a touch that people who invest in these funds should be aware of?
Tony Drake: Yeah, that’s the limitation, right, I mean, I reckon for your retail shareholder that just wants to set it and forget it, doesn’t want to reckon about it at all. I like your thought, David, of the blunt instrument. It can be a fantastic blunt instrument to just at least have a touch that’s rebalancing at some point right through your decades of working if you just don’t want to look at it. But a lot of investors, to your point, Sandy, do have uncommon risk tolerances. Some of these bonds look at, hey, they have uncommon philosophies, right? Just like any money manager, they’re going to have a uncommon way of life on what you should be invested five years out from retirement, for example, and you want to make sure that your way of life is aligned with that money manager.
Most investors aren’t willing to do the investigate and to dig into that. That’s where a excellent fiduciary advisor might be able to help really come up with a more bespoke choice. Today there’s pretty incredible tools where I can have a family come in. They still have their money in the 401(k). Through all these fantastic technologies, I can go and help them rebalance and make sure we’re taking benefit of uncommon opportunities. So now and again that could be better, but if you’re a self-trader, want to handle it physically, they can be a fantastic way to just set it and forget it.
David Muhlbaum: We’ve been talking about target date funds as a vehicle for retirement, but they’re also a well loved option in 529 plans, saving for college. For that, instead of picking a date for retirement, we’re anticipating, we hope, that there’s a year that our kid or kids will be going to college, and choosing a fund that will be stable, mostly cash when it’s time to pay those tuition bills. I reckon there are situations where people who are if not more active investors, maybe with party stocks and mutual funds in their choice, they just say, “No matter what. I hope the kid’s going in 2024. I’ll just stick that money in a target date fund.” I know at least one person who fits that profile because it’s me, so judge me. Was that a mistake?
Tony Drake: I don’t know that it was mistake. Again, if you want to take that mind-set that, maybe the kids will go to school sometime around 2024, might be a simple way to stick money into a fund, not have to reckon about it, not have to worry about it. Again, as we’ve been talking about it with the target date funds as it pertains to retirement, we want to watch those fees, right? Those can really stack up. We want to look for efficiencies in a choice and make sure that that’s getting safer as those family get through high school and they’re getting closer to needing that money. We may not want the equity exposure. As Sandy mentioned, in 2008, one fund may not have been as conservative as another and they took a lot larger beating if they weren’t invested by the book.
David Muhlbaum: That raises a inquiry also about the choices void within each 529 fund. There are a lot of 529 funds out there, but the funds that each of them offer and the families of funds that they offer can vary as well, so that really … it adds a layer of problem.
Tony Drake: It surely can be complex. That’s one of the things we want to look at, whether it’s a 529, we run into the same issues with 401(k)s or 403(b)s or no matter what type of retirement account you have. Some of them offer a lot … wide range of funds and investment options, and you can really dive into the fees and the costs and make sure you’re being well-methodical there. Some of them give us a pretty limited menu of choices and we’re stuck with what we have. One of the philosophies doubtless behind in-service distributions, as we get closer to retirement, of course, that’s the ability for a retiree to say I want to take some of my money out of my 401(k), place it into a self-aimed at IRA. So now the world is my oyster with as many uncommon options. Now that might not make sense for every person. Now and again you’re better off leaving in a 401(k). That’s doubtless a more caught up chat, but lots of these prions, whether it’s 529 or retirement fiscal proclamation, some are just better when it comes to the menu of investment options than others.
Sandy Block: Tony, you raise a really appealing point and doubtless a touch we could do a whole ‘nother podcast on, which is the pros and cons of rolling over your 401(k) into an IRA. As you said, oftentimes, that does … once you place money in an IRA, you are in control and you get many choices, but that’s not always a excellent option for people. So I reckon that’s a touch that we might’ve wanted to talk about later. But it sounds like what it really comes down to is know thyself. If you really just want to place your 401(k) on autopilot, a target date fund is a excellent thought for you. But it sounds to me like you shouldn’t just assume that it’s always the only option that you should explore.
Tony Drake: Fantastic way to look at it. Knowing physically is really the answer. If you’re just going to not look at your funds and not pay concentration, that could be a catastrophe if you’re picking point funds in certain sectors. So that target date fund can really help there. It reminds me, I’m going to age myself here. You guys doubtless dredge up that whole deal where you buy term and invest the alteration. It was this whole way of life on not buying whole life indemnity or cash value indemnity.
Sandy Block: Oh yeah.
Tony Drake: The problem is a lot of people bought term and didn’t invest the alteration. They spent the alteration, right? So again, knowing physically. If you’re a productive shareholder, you’re going to look at your choice, make adjustments as the economy changes. Target date funds may be less well-methodical and not the best option, but they can be a really simple choice for folks that are just sticking money in every payroll.
David Muhlbaum: Well, thanks for joining us, Tony. We really be thankful for your insights and we’re going to listen more to your show too, because it sounds like we could chat some more.
Tony Drake: I be thankful for it. Now I’ll have three viewers, you guys and my mom.
David Muhlbaum: That will just about do it for this episode of Your Money’s Worth. If you like what you heard, please sign up for more at Apple Podcasts or where on earth you get your content. When you do, please give us a rating and a review. If you’ve already subscribed, thanks. Please go back and add a rating or a review if you haven’t already. To see the links we’ve mentioned in our show, along with other fantastic Kiplinger content on the topics we’ve discussed, go to kiplinger.com/podcast. The episodes, transcripts and links are all in there by date. If you’re still here because you want to give us a piece of your mind, you can stay collectively with us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or by emailing us frankly at [email protected]. Thanks for listening.